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Return of the Phantom

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26 Re: Return of the Phantom on Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:27 pm

RedDeath

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I explained both, so, he can just use that reference.


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27 Re: Return of the Phantom on Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:39 pm

Etienne de Mendes

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All right, let us see if my computer genius friend has been able to assign me an avatar and a signature. In 'The Season of the Witch', the book which follows 'The Return of the Phantom', I deal with Leroux's line: "The reader knows and guesses the rest. It is all in keeping with this incredibe and yet veracious story...with an ordinary face, he would have been one of the most distinguished of mankind...he had a heart that could have held the empire of the world." What say you to that line of Leroux's? And I would like to know why you feel Erik needs redemption. He freed Christine because he loved her, not because he wanted to be forgiven...by God or anyone.

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28 Re: Return of the Phantom on Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:44 pm

Etienne de Mendes

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Where is signature? Ah, computer genius now has picture on screen. Thank you, computer genius. Before we go any further in discussions, I want to applaud whoever came up with the idea of making this website into a theater. VERY CLEVER.

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29 Re: Return of the Phantom on Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:57 pm

RedDeath

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Etienne de Mendes wrote:All right, let us see if my computer genius friend has been able to assign me an avatar and a signature. In 'The Season of the Witch', the book which follows 'The Return of the Phantom', I deal with Leroux's line: "The reader knows and guesses the rest. It is all in keeping with this incredibe and yet veracious story...with an ordinary face, he would have been one of the most distinguished of mankind...he had a heart that could have held the empire of the world." What say you to that line of Leroux's? And I would like to know why you feel Erik needs redemption. He freed Christine because he loved her, not because he wanted to be forgiven...by God or anyone.
.... Before we go any further in discussions, I want to applaud whoever came up with the idea of making this website into a theater. VERY CLEVER.

First of all, I believe that that line of Leroux's is very true, except for one small flaw. Had Erik been born without a deformity, we can guess that he would have eventually found love and that the story The Phantom of the Opera would never have been. (Not saying he was a real person, but, you understand the thought process: Without a deformity, he has no need to hide, therefore making the idea of the story foolish). However, he seems to have suffered from some sort of mental instability. It's more than obsession it's border-line insanity in some parts. Granted, we can safely guess his life was full of burden due to his face, and that may have created some degree of insanity, but, we can not completely disregard that he may have been born with it.
Second, I like the redemption because it shows that Erik has a heart and it not all bad. Leroux had him set Christine free for a reason, or else he would have made Erik keep her with him, which would make Erik a much less empathetic character. Having him lure Christine back to him makes no sense to me, like with Phantom of Manhatten and loads of other phan fiction. It ruins the original storyline.
Third, the idea to name the boards after POTO-related places, etc. was my idea, so, thank you. Very Happy


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30 Re: Return of the Phantom on Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:00 pm

Etienne de Mendes

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For the sake of furthering discussion can we agree on a definition for the word ‘redemption’? And can that definition be: to repair or atone for error or crime. Certainly a fictional character doesn’t need redemption, he doesn’t really exist; the author rightly just ends the story at a point of his choosing. But Leroux invites us, based on what he’s written, to guess (or invent) the rest. He also gives us this intriguing sentence about Erik’s big heartedness. The Phantom has a heart to fill, not Paris or France, but the entire planet. Quite a statement.

Now, a criminally insane person is not in their right mind and therefore not accountable for his misdeeds. They do, however, need confinement to prevent them from committing further aggressive acts against society. (No one I’m aware of has written this scenario in a sequel.) But a sane man is culpable for his wrong doing, and if Erik is in his right mind, simply releasing his victim is not redemption. He has not repaired the psychological and physical harm he’s caused to her and to others, nor has he been punished under the law.

Leroux says that Erik felt himself so rejected and ostracized by society that he considered himself outside its boundaries. Their punishment was too cruel, too unjust. In the final chapter of his book the author tells us that Erik created this enormous underground dwelling to live out mankind’s declaration that his ugliness be removed from their sight. Hidden in forced seclusion, apart from their eyes, Erik consoles his genius by creating music and playing tricks. And Leroux flatly asks his readers, “Do you curse him? Pity him?” Throughout the piece we hear the author saying over and over, “Is anything what it seems?” Even the use of the word ‘Phantom’ in his title, (which means something apparent to the senses but not substantial), cries out for us to unmask the illusion.

Imagine a person extends you a quarter in their palm. “Here, it’s a quarter,” they say. “It has two sides and that’s the extent of it.” But we know it’s not. The quarter has a third side, a circular ridge that has dimension and capability. Spun on its side the quarter can entertain…and if hidden and magically drawn from the ear of a child, it can be a delight.

In The Return of the Phantom, I offer a down-to-earth Erik who suffers and has joys like everyone else, but has a metaphysical reason for existing in that space and time. And I was happy to discover that Leroux used the metaphysical in many of his other works. I have been told I write surprises…I certainly hope so.

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31 Re: Return of the Phantom on Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:53 pm

RedDeath

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Technically, a fictional character can receive redemption, because, in his/her own fictional world, he/she does of course exist, making redemption possible.


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32 Re: Return of the Phantom on Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:00 pm

Etienne de Mendes

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Scene Shifter
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You have such an interesting mind, Red Death. Yes, I will most certainly concede that in a fictional work, a fictional character can receive redemption. My point, and I’m still holding to it, is that simply freeing Christine does not give Erik redemption. His crimes are far too great. Besides, I don’t believe Erik considered making reparation something of value. He wouldn’t have wasted his time over it. Leroux wrote that since society spurned him, he spurned society and its rules right back. He believed himself above the law. (Common enough concept, but this is no run of the mill character.) What I present to you is this: freeing Christine points to something far more dramatic. Either Erik finally believes himself unworthy of her, or he has come to truly, deeply love her. I opt for the later, as he already felt himself unworthy when he started the whole business of teaching her through a wall and a mirror. Even though it angered him, the concept that he was unworthy had been drilled into his head all his life. No, I don’t see that as the motivation. Letting her go, just when he finally has her commitment…to my romantic heart…speaks of genuine love. Further, I think she recognized it when it happened, and it stirred something deep within her as well.

ps - I like being a member of the ballet rats, they're afraid of going into the fifith cellar and they should be.

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33 Re: Return of the Phantom on Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:50 pm

RedDeath

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Main Phantom
Main Phantom
I was just searching through my closet and I found an OLD manuscript of mine, from, according to the date, when I was 13 (3 years ago), also called Return of the Phantom!
It is a vastly different plot idea, though.
It has Erik surviving through the decades until Christine's great grand-daughter comes to fame at the Paris Opera House. Her name is Selina. Erik kidnaps her in much the same way, and many of the plot twists are the same as in the original Leroux novel, with one major change:
In the end, Erik allows Christine to leave him (the same idea of redemption we've been discussing), and he then plays his magnum opus on his organ so loud, his lair caves in, presumably crushing him.

It's really a good, intriguing, and macabre story that I forgot I even wrote! I may post some of it in due time...It's just such a coincidence I wrote a book with the same name of a new novel!


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34 Re: Return of the Phantom on Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:11 pm

Viscountess duBois

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Dang it! *stamps foot* I wanna read that one now instead of the Phantom Returns. Oh well, if I get any money for Christmas, maybe I will get it after all

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35 Re: Return of the Phantom on Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:16 pm

RedDeath

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Haha. I'd like to post mine on here for everyone to see... And then I can change the name and publish it and be world renown!


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36 Re: Return of the Phantom on Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:49 pm

Etienne de Mendes

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Red Death – let me encourage you to publish your work, it sounds interesting and I for one promise to purchase it and read it. I have only three suggestions and they were given to me when I was considering putting The Return of the Phantom out into the public. First: don’t pull the punch. Whatever you write about, do it to the fullness that your human experience will allow. So many authors work up an interesting scenario and then back off, missing an opportunity for a great surprise, genuine tragedy, etc. This takes a degree of courage, but it will raise the literary level of your work substantially. Second: draw the reader in through the five senses. If we are going to be in the story with you – let us be there. And finally: copyright the piece. It’s yours, why not let it stay so? On a different note, I have a first edition copy of Leroux’s original work. It contains some interesting illustrations by Andre Castaigne. One can imagine that they must have conferred with Leroux about them. They would be wonderful to share, but the book is a fragile thing. It’s over 100 years old…older than the two of us put together. Any suggestions? Etienne de Mendes

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37 Re: Return of the Phantom on Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:03 pm

RedDeath

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Main Phantom
I know, you emailed me about them!
Is there no way you can scan them into the computer?
I REALLY would like to see them! Are there any of Erik unmasked? I LOVE seeing different interpretations of his deformity Smile

And, thank you for the advice... All this renewed interest in it is making me want to rewrite it and post it on here... I think I may.


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38 Re: Return of the Phantom on Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:42 pm

Etienne de Mendes

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Scene Shifter
Apologies that it has taken so long to respond to your posting, Red Death. At one time the site sent me emails when a message was sent. I guess that feature is gone now. How is your writing coming? I will look at the book and see if there are any original pictures with the phantom unmasked.

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39 Re: Return of the Phantom on Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:15 pm

RedDeath

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Main Phantom
Main Phantom
I sent out newsletters to the members, and inactive member warnings... Perhaps you changed the email address you used?

My writing is fine...I've strayed from the POTO related novels and am working more on Gothic romance now involving Vampyres. Thanks for asking Smile

And thank you for checking for me. Very Happy


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40 Re: Return of the Phantom on Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:57 pm

Etienne de Mendes

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Good Eeevening (as Dracula would say) - I hope I get to read something of your writing eventually, Red Death, as you have a sharp and intriguing mind. I looked at my first edition of The Phantom of the Opera, the very last colored print shows the Phantom's face unmasked from below the eyes downward. It looks remarkably like the face Lon Chaney presented on the silver screen, except that the original Erik was much thinner and more powerful looking. One of the original prints from the book is on the web. A masked Erik is perched in Apollo's Lyre and looking down at Raoul and Christine on the Opera House roof. My book is too fragile to open out onto a scanner, but I'm still thinking about how to get the pictures over to Phantom's Mask. Will talk to you (and anyone else who cares to jump in here) soon.

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41 Re: Return of the Phantom on Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:36 pm

RedDeath

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Main Phantom
Main Phantom
Okay, thank you! Very Happy


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42 Re: Return of the Phantom on Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:35 pm

dreamwriter2010

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I'm just going to jump in here. Etienne de Mendes, I've seen your book in one of the ads at the bottom of a page when I was poking around one time, and it looked interesting. And from what people are saying about it on here, I definitely want to get it as soon as I'm able to.

I like POTO sequels because I like to see how each author portrays Erik, Christine, Raoul, and all of the other characters. To me, POTO sequels are interesting reads! Very Happy

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43 Re: Return of the Phantom on Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:24 pm

Viscountess duBois

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This book really does look interesting, I can't wait to get it!

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44 Re: Return of the Phantom on Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:21 am

Nightcat

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Scene Shifter
Scene Shifter
Sound cool. But I just spent thirty bucks on an illustrated version of the original novel. Yes, I already have two or three of those, but the pictures looked so prrety. Still can't figure out if it is a novel or graphic novel. I'll let you know when it comes in. Aw, heck. Can hear Amazon calling me. Smile

And yes, squels do bother me. Seeing as how Erik was dead at the end of Leroux's novel, he'd have to be a zombie or some other necr- cutie for anybody to really carry on the storyline.

Necro-cuties. :drools:

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45 Re: Return of the Phantom on Thu May 29, 2008 2:43 pm

phantom glider

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Lead Singer
Lead Singer
affraid oh my god! the name of the author is the name of the guy Erik's mom fell in love with in SK's novel! wow! affraid

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46 Re: Return of the Phantom on Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:05 pm

Viscountess duBois

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That's right! Very observant...
Curiosity has gotten the better of me and I'm purchasing this book for my birthday.

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